Hi Blog fans,
I intend this to be the first in a number of blogs to come out in quick succession, so no Hawaii photos yet, stay tuned for those!
This one will be provocative - so turn away now if you have a nervous disposition.
It is written with my most vocal audience (IFO and Stevie G) in mind, though may be of interest to any number of you I have annoyed in the past by telling you you aren't an Atheist.
Being a theologian is a thoroughly annoying business; as religion is the one of those things that nobody actually believes it is possible to be an expert in. So you can study for years, but ultimately most people will inately believe that their opinion is equally valid as yours even if they have never thought about the subject before.
Which, in a sense, it is.
Belief is a personal thing, and everyone has a right to believe what they want. This stretches to other disciplines too. A brain surgeon will be an expert in their field, but if you believe you don't want them poking around inside your head, then your belief trumps their knowledge.
However, you don't get to set the framework of the conversation. If they tell you the CAT scan shows an enlarged medulla oblongata you don't get to tell them that it is your hippocampus.
Here is where the difference lies in discussions about religion - everyone thinks they can set the framework of the conversation where religion is concerned. And this is entirely unhelpful in deciding the thing of larger importance - what they believe.
Hence I always try to find out more when someone tells me they are an Atheist, because most often they are an Agnostic - seeing religion as something that falls outside what can be known.
Importantly, this does not make them fluffy-minded fence-sitters. Evidence for this comes from a recent article about the global atheist convention, which was written by an Atheist. She noted;
Even atheist poster boy Richard Dawkins, on a scale of 1 (believes in god) to 7 (atheist) describes himself as a 6.9. "
That seems odd doesn't it? From someone who can write about the God Delusion. But, you see, Dawkins can't call himself an Atheist, because his criticism of belief in God comes from scientific method - and you cannot scientifically disprove the existence of God (any more than you can prove it) so to state that God does not exist would be to hold a belief unsubstantiated by the scientific method, and therefore have no stronger foundation than the believers themselves. That's why there aren't that many true atheists - the global conference only had 2500 attendees, which is about as many as the North Dakota Florists associations annual jolly in Vegas.
So, anyone who claims that their world-view is based in scientific method can only be a form of Agnostic, and state that we don't know for certain. This can be strong agnosticism - combined with belief that religious behaviour is detrimental to human advancement, evil makes the existence of a good God unlikely etc., but it is still agnosticism.
When framed in these terms, I can actually get onboard with a form of agnosticism myself. I think it is clear that we can't prove the existence or non-existence of God through scientific method. But I am a strong agnostic in the other direction, combining my knowledge that we can't scientifically know, with belief that other elements combine to allow faith in the existence of God - faith, of course, implying probability of various levels.
However, in a world (seemingly) won over by the scientific method, most Agnostics simply dismiss religious belief - "we can't know so why should we care" could be the mantra. Even those who might seem like strong agnostics in the pub rarely go the lengths of doing anything to bring down religion - so they too fit in here, as what I will call the Inert Agnostic.
Those of you who have got this far will be thinking; What has all this got to do with Climate Change?
Well, it turns out, quite a lot.
You see, with Climate Change, the boot has been placed rather unceremoniously on the other foot.
With Climate Change, fans of the scientific method are suddenly experiencing what believers have experienced for centuries - an urgent need to wake-up the Inert Agnostic.
For it is quite possible to be Agnostic about Climate Change, with the capital C's. There is documented evidence of climate change with the lower case c's, but to put these different bits of evidence together and state that man is responsible and it will continue to get worse is to enter into the realm of probability.
In this realm, you ultimately rely on belief.
This is true of any scientific theory, but with Climate Change a religious comparison is strong, because proponents of Climate Change point to a devastating result if their theory is not adhered to.
Cimate Change will have teleological proof (as we in the theology game call it); the theory will be proved correct in the end, when the predicted disasters have occurred.
Obviously, proponents of Climate Change can't wait for that to happen so, with what some might call a religious zeal, they are trying to win converts to their cause.
And I am all for that. I believe in Climate Change and think we should be doing everything we can to stop it.
But then I have form. I already hold an unsubstantiated belief that inspires me to try and get others to change their beliefs.
People who share my belief have also done some very bad things (a lot lot worse than fabricating evidence to be fair) but it doesn't mean that I should be tarred with the same brush, and it also doesn't fundamentally weaken my argument.
My belief asks people to change their behaviour - and that makes believers unpopular in some circles.
So welcome to my world Climate Change believers!
And while you are here, why not look around and see what else might take your fancy in the realm of beliefs that might save mankind from future disaster...
DD out
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Well there we finally have it!
ReplyDeleteI quote from Dave's blog, "as we in the theology game call it".
Dave has admitted that theology is a game. I couldn't have put it better myself.
Steve
P.S. What do you think of Dave calling his father-in-law Stevie G? Quite impertinent, don't you think? Who knows? Perhaps he could be persuaded by evidence. Then again, perhaps he just holds to the belief that my name is Stevie! ;-)
If this means I can hold God at least partially responsible for Climate Change, then I might be willing to reconsider...
ReplyDeleteQuestions that come to mind for us believers in Climate Change:
ReplyDeleteHow might we feel if scientific evidence emerged that proved no correlation between humans and climate change? Lost? Misled? Relieved? Would we trade in our electric cars for Hummers?
P.S. For the record, I rather like Stevie G. I think it is going to stick.
Jenn - in response to your comment - I get Agnostics, I really do. Some days I think I might be one. And I agree: people would feel Lost, Misled, Relieved if there turned out to be no correlation between humans and climate change. BUT, so long as there is no evidence to the contrary, should we say "I don't buy it" and stop recycling and go out and buy that Hummer?
ReplyDeleteGood point Jenn, and good response Kira!
ReplyDeleteJenn, I see the basis of a logical positivist argument in your reply - that religious discourse is not valid because it isn't able to be disproved, whereas scientific theory is.
However, this is exactly why I chose climate change rather than another theory (say evolution), because of the imperative on action needed now, prior to 'verification'.
Which I think is what Kira alludes to in her response. Our behaviour now is not based on the scientific foundation that we might be able to disprove the theory in the future, but in our faith in the validity of Climate Change.
Oh, and Stevie G, Theology is Queen of the Sciences. Word.
ReplyDeleteThere you go again, wanting to have your cake and eat it. How can theology be a science when you have admitted that it is based soley on faith. And for a very good reason - there is no evidence, I repeat, NO evidence for the existence of a god. The best that can be said is that theology searches with scientific tools to find evidence of the existence of it's god. Good luck!
ReplyDeleteIt is delusionary. The core of organized religion is rooted in stories invented to explain human's lack of understanding of our existence. Yet by our very human limitations, we will never be able to understand.
And then there's the reality, with a surfeit of evidence over thousands of years, that the institutions of religion developed into a means for driving fear into the populations with the goal of controling them, exploiting them, and building the power to control the masses, thus ensuring the establishment and then the maintenance of that establishment of a selected few elite to be rich, powerful and feared.
If that is what "belief in god" has become, that alone looks to me to be empirical evidence of the absence of a god .
Love the conversation! And Dave, I do find your analogy clever. However:
ReplyDeleteI was attempting to make the point that finding proof regarding the correlation between human actions and Climate Change would not ultimately have the same impact as discovering proof regarding the existence of God(s).
Science cannot currently answer the questions Who am I? Where did I come from? and Where am I going from here? Religion provides people with those answers, without the burden of "proof" or "evidence".
Sure, belief in Climate Change and belief in God both require immediate action, prior to 'verification'. But one result is measured in millennium while the other in eternity...
Hi Steve (I'm sensing you don't like Stevie G...),
ReplyDeleteYou make some good points, which I will attempt to respectfully counter here.
Theology being Queen of the Sciences need not imply that Theology is a science. I always took it to mean that it gave context to the sciences. Though that is also a little belittling, so I don't necessarily stand by it... it was my little joke...
However, you are right to link the term to an unfortunate time when Natural Theology was prominent. Natural Theology was (and is) exactly what you describe; a discipline which used the tools of science to try to prove the existence of God. However, that is not what the vast majority of theologians throughout time, and definitely today, are involved in.
Theology comes from the Greek Theos meaning God and Logos meaning word - so theologians engage in the study of the word of God, i.e. sacred texts of the world religions. This involves study of interpretation throughout the ages, so brings in many philosophical, historical, sociological and psychological tools, in addition to the tools of linguistics and literary criticism.
However, the main focus remains the texts, and therefore (as a student of theology) I can assure you that the core of organized religion is not based on explaining the existence of human beings, nor indeed on explaining things which science has subsequently explained (such as lightening storms etc.). These things may have driven some pre-scientific humans to religion, but they are not the subject nor cause of religion.
The subject of religion is the alignment of the human soul with the divine - and there is a surprising amount of agreement about how this occurs - across historical and geographical divides - which suggests that this is something that we can understand.
I can't deny that many evil things have been done in the name of Religion - and I don't want to brush over this. It is definitely arguable that Religion has been the vehicle for the most evil generated in this world. However evil has also been done in the name of Science, Patriotism, Freedom and Democracy, the list goes on and on. Evil men destroy using the tools of good. None of these things are inherently evil in themselves.
Should true believers have done more to stop evil men from using Religion as a mask for their misdeeds? Certainly.
Does this make it fairly and rightly difficult for many people to accept the claims of Religion? Yes.
Does it prove that Religion is false and that God doesn't exist? Not at all.
I respectfully suggest that this is what we can't understand - why our hearts long for the divine when our modern world makes us feel fools, or even traitors, for doing so.
In relation to evil and suffering, I have every respect for people who cannot even consider thoughts of God.
But for me, not considering religion because it doesn't use the scientific method is a cop out - and in relation to Climate Change, potentially hypocritical.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJenn - good point. Word.
ReplyDeleteStevie G (sorry, I quite like that) - don't let your dislike of organised religion prevent you from believing in something bigger than yourself. For me, that's all it's about. There is something bigger than me that I don't know/can't know/won't know but I suspect exits. I don't think it has to govern my life, or lay down the rules by which I live. But I suspect it exists and for stuff I can't explain, I figure this bigger than me thing is connected somehow.
Humanity has become so rigid when it comes to faith and belief. It has to look like that, be like this, play by these rules. OF COURSE we don't know. Why not live in a world of possibilites?
The possibility of G-D does not have to equal organised religion, nor anything that organised religion expects in relation to G-D.
Nicely put, Kira and Dave.
ReplyDeleteAs an atheist/agnostic/heathen/non-believer/infidel or whatever you wish to call me, I have always looked at it like this:
For some, the current "evidence" available and their life experiences have lead them to one conclusion: the existence of Higher Power(s). For others, the exact same "evidence" and equally valid life experiences have lead them to the opposite conclusion.
Until the current "evidence" is viewed differently, new "evidence" becomes available or life experiences change, people will continue to reach the same conclusions.
I think this is why many agnostics could be describes as "inert". I cannot offer new evidence or life experiences that would change someone's conclusions. I could attempt to have them view the current evidence or their life experiences from my perspective, but why? I do not believe that religion is inherently harmful. I do not believe it is inherently helpful, either. To me, it is just another way of thinking or system by which to live.
Looking at it from this perspective, I can understand why some believers of particular faiths would try to change my mind. They believe that my non-belief is inherently harmful. I do not agree with it, and the attempts at changing minds has not always been done in ethical ways, but I can understand it.
Thanks Jenn!
ReplyDeleteThis one's been interesting!
Intentionally provocative - belief in climate change and belief in God are obviously not the same thing because the evidence that leads to the belief is of a different order (I'm not going to get into that now though...).
But I am glad that by making a cheeky, flawed comparison I sparked some debate!
Ok... :o)
ReplyDeleteStevie G - I agree with everything you have written. I could leave it there but I can't resist sorry.
There is no God but I'm not going to get to concerned about that argument - I have my own belief, the belief in Happiness. Do whatever you want to make you happy so long as it doesn't impede on others happiness and/or make others unhappy. Live your life in a way where you treat others the way you wanted to be treated and respect the environment around you. Thats my simple religion. If you want to join send a cheque for £1,000, say 12 hell mary's and don't ever eat turkey twizzlers ever again (women will wear the burka but will have the freedom to jazz them up with more colour).
If nothing else I don't fancy joining a group whose symbol is a human nailed to 2 pieces of wood - no thanks.
Have you seen The Invention of Lying? Loved it
Climate Change = Carbon Tax = Increased Control
Where will this end? There will be a carbon tax on individuals for breathing.
What you don't say tho is weather (haha) you believe in Man made climate change or it's caused by something else .... (God maybe? Or the Origins of religion the Sun?)
If you don't belive it's man made just pray that it will stop - if it's not man made - pray that God will make man make it stop.
I am not convinced by the Climate Change argument - if it is happening then I do not believe that human activity is the largest factor. Simple one for you: What ended the Ice Age?
If nothing else i dislike how we are tackling Climate Change - if you don't believe in it you are tagged a "denier", we are dealing it with it through money and passing more profit to corporate organisations... personally i would like to see more effort going towards ending war in the Middle East and stop the dumping of nuclear waste all over Iraq, Afganistan and Palestine but there's another whole topic for you.
Climate Change is systematic of the way the world is going: Socialism. Every problem needs to be solved by the Government and no-one wants to help themselves anymore. You don't need medicaid - just eat healthier and do more exercise. If the car industry wasn't making money - let it go bust. if banks took on too much risk they go bust. If climate change is happening then man is not able to stop it - sometimes i think we big up our race far too much. Just live life and chillout and be happy.
I whole heartedly agree with re-cycling and using local produce and managing the Earth's resources in a much better way (see www.thevenusproject.com). Preservation of the planet for future generations should be a major issue but it is clouded (get it!) by the climate change argument. Stop felling the rain forest, stop polluting the oceans, stop driving stupid sized cars on oil and look to use sustainable sources before all hell breaks loose and we hit world war 3 - its pretty simple stuff that everyone can comprehend.
anyway sorry I've lost all structure - I'm off to collect for my religion and oversee work converting the homeless shelter into my church
Nice one Fo - way to have an opinion! (check out Epicurus and Jeremy Bentham - they both have quite similar thoughts on happiness... and you can see Jeremy Bentham's Mummy at UCL!)
ReplyDeleteThat's all I ask; that no one uses 'scientific method' as an excuse not to think about these things.
But, in a last throw of the dice, I have to cast phase 2 of my climate change argument - as it fits with a couple of your comments.
Why is it important that we preserve the planet for future generations? This doesn't come from any scientific fact. Yes, we might be able to say that we are destroying our planet, but that doesn't give us the imperative to save it. To think that is to commit the naturalistic fallacy, derive an ought from an is.
You say yourself that we big ourselves up to much as a race. So why should we survive? If we are true 'scientists' we should just observe our destruction, and that of our planet.
Any sense that we should do something about it is a moral imperative based on a belief. This is true even if you believe the selfish gene is responsible for the feeling, as you would just ignore it if you truly believed that were the case.
This doesn't have to be a religious belief - you could be acting out of belief in the sanctity of the human spirit (as a humanist) or even, I guess, purely out of belief in the sanctity of efficiency (as a German?) but you are still acting out of a belief in some form of external thing which has claims to your behaviour and that of others... So I guess I should lose the capitalisation and call it the climate change argument for the existence of god(s)
Alright Dave.. erm your English is far more sophisticated that mine so I don't really understand what you just said.... but yes very true maybe we should observe our ownb destruction. Persoanlly I think the planet has a great way of re-balancing itself. It we pollute the world and use up all the resources then many people will die of disease, famine, natural disaters etc and then human civilisation (if you can call it that) will grow again and evolve in a different way ... If you believe in the New World Order then they reckon that the planet can sustain a population of 500m so there needs to be quite a bit of re-balancing for that to happen!
ReplyDeleteNot sure about the german view but more the venus project view but yes certainly a far more efficient use of resources would help put an end to poverty, to homelessness and to famine... why should we care... because it's nice and its humane thing to do - if nothing it is logical - if everyone is well off and healthy then natuarlly you will benefit
anyway answer the question... what ended the ice age??? too many inuits on skidoos? too many mammoths farting giving off methane perhaps?
Here's what I think Buddy: People believe in Climate Change because they see all the ad's on TV and documentaries telling us what our opinion should be on it-there was no room for argument at all on this-it was presented as fact from the word go-whereas the existence of God has always been called into question. So really it's simple-God needs more air space, much better PR and more adverts about Him-preferable during Coronation Street and Emmerdale...
ReplyDeleteAlso I wish you hadn't said "medulla oblongata" so early on-I couldn't get Adam Sandler in Water Boy out of my head for the rest of the post which was unfortunate...
Buddy x
I found it helpful to read Barbara Dewey’s book, “Consciousness and Quantum Behavior: The Theory of Laminated Spacetime Re-Examined.” Dewey and her father were both physicists. Her research shows that contrary to popular belief, science and religion are not at odds with each other.
ReplyDeleteAnother good read along the same lines is Ken Wilber’s “The Marriage of Science and Soul.” Wilber is considered to be one of the greatest living philosophers of our time.
Elys - (Dave's current Mother-in-Charge)
Thanks Buddy and Elys,
ReplyDeleteThe PR comment is a great one - may be the subject of my next blog.
Watch this space...
Climate change is an interesting discussion, whether it is proven or not, it is a matter of conscience. Conscience sitting uncomfortably between modern philosophy (which could be noted as being survival) and the desire to act from a moral, ethical or humanistic sense, no matter what your belief. To blame God indicates at a sense of God, if only from a point of denial. If modern philosophy was truly held personally (rather than business ethics) then what does it matter about climate change? But if there is meaning to the state of the world, and individuals and society have meaning and a sense of it. I think then it underlines the need or perception of a revolution of sorts, because your looking at the world in crisis, which can in my view only reflect personal and societal crisis, or vise verse. I think the issue is intrinsically linked to faith or God, as the meaning is inseparable from God, which also gives depth and breadth to the conversation topic. It is also in my view, not important enough for individuals who 'sit on the fence', which is a lot of people. The 'status quo' is seemingly as far as i can see, the pervading mantra, which is the more dangerous and deceptively hidden agenda of the masses. behaviour is in my view, not the issue, it is a matter of the heart, or conscience.
ReplyDelete